Comments on: At the boundary of the species http://www.currion.net/2008/07/15/at-the-boundary-of-the-species/ Paul Currion struggles to explain himself. Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:14:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Paul Currion http://www.currion.net/2008/07/15/at-the-boundary-of-the-species/#comment-343 Paul Currion Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:57:04 +0000 http://www.currion.net/?p=209#comment-343 Ryan: why apes and not horses? If rights don't exist outside norms, then on what grounds would you criticise (for example) apartheid? Mat: what are the "qualities of humanity"? If rights are felt first and justified later, then where does the "feeling" come from? Ryan: why apes and not horses? If rights don’t exist outside norms, then on what grounds would you criticise (for example) apartheid?

Mat: what are the “qualities of humanity”? If rights are felt first and justified later, then where does the “feeling” come from?

]]> By: matslats http://www.currion.net/2008/07/15/at-the-boundary-of-the-species/#comment-342 matslats Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:56:40 +0000 http://www.currion.net/?p=209#comment-342 How about this for an axiom: insofar as a creature shows the qualities of humanity, then the rights which humans desire for themselves should be given it. Lots of room for interpretation there! I too am not sure that rights should apply to babies as much as more conscious creatures, but no mother would subscribe to that. In that case perhaps rights are not intellectually justifiable, but are felt first and justified later. I'm happy to read that some apes now have some rights in law, but I'm much more concerned about the humans whose legal rights are not upheld. There's just no getting away from it, in all my experience of the world and its species, I think, predictably, that human suffering is the most deplorable How about this for an axiom: insofar as a creature shows the qualities of humanity, then the rights which humans desire for themselves should be given it. Lots of room for interpretation there!

I too am not sure that rights should apply to babies as much as more conscious creatures, but no mother would subscribe to that. In that case perhaps rights are not intellectually justifiable, but are felt first and justified later.

I’m happy to read that some apes now have some rights in law, but I’m much more concerned about the humans whose legal rights are not upheld. There’s just no getting away from it, in all my experience of the world and its species, I think, predictably, that human suffering is the most deplorable

]]> By: Ryan Lanham http://www.currion.net/2008/07/15/at-the-boundary-of-the-species/#comment-341 Ryan Lanham Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:48:40 +0000 http://www.currion.net/?p=209#comment-341 I struggle with this. Apes yes. Beating a horse a rights violation? Wow. Rights matter a lot to me. On the other hand, I don't think they actually exist outside norms. What you are really attempting to do is to create an algebra of norms--something that's always dangerous if taken too far. I think social groups big and small make decisions about what rights they want and which they do not. At some point, someone loses out by being counter-culture. We must rely on an ethic of rights scrutiny in the absence of a calculus. Rights will and should be constantly vetted and reassessed...sometimes preserved, but they cannot be derived. At least that's my current thinking. Ryan Lanham I struggle with this. Apes yes. Beating a horse a rights violation? Wow. Rights matter a lot to me. On the other hand, I don’t think they actually exist outside norms. What you are really attempting to do is to create an algebra of norms–something that’s always dangerous if taken too far. I think social groups big and small make decisions about what rights they want and which they do not. At some point, someone loses out by being counter-culture. We must rely on an ethic of rights scrutiny in the absence of a calculus. Rights will and should be constantly vetted and reassessed…sometimes preserved, but they cannot be derived.

At least that’s my current thinking.

Ryan Lanham

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